Madle:  How it all started.  I had just moved to Indianapolis, and Don Ford got in touch with me to go up to Bellefontaine for a get-together at the home of Dr. C. L. Barrett, a very active fan and collector.  Lou Tabakow and Ben Keiffer were there.  I brought up an idea, from something I had read on a men’s room wall somewhere: ‘First Fandom Is Not Dead.’  Maybe Dave Kyle wrote it. 

I suggested that we start an organization that would consist of the older fans, the readers and collectors who could show that they had been active prior to 1938.  Everybody thought that it was great, and after a few hours of discussion, Don Ford said, “Okay Madle, it was your idea, you’re president.”  Everybody picked their own officer ship, and we needed a publisher so we called up Lynn Hickman. 

First Fandom was started primarily to acknowledge the fame of certain old-time writers, give them awards that they had never received, like E. E. Smith, who received the first of the First Fandom Hall of Fame Awards, and later on Hugo Gernsback, David H. Keller, and so on.  So, that’s the way it started.  The idea originally, as Dave Kyle will attest, was that it was going to be a “last fan” club.  There’s a fifth of liquor that Forry Ackerman is holding, and the last two fans in First Fandom would get together and knock off that fifth of liquor. 

There was controversy even at the beginning, with Bob Tucker refusing to join, based on the idea that First Fandom should sever at 1935, which would only give us 15-20 members.  He finally came around and joined.  Another basic purpose of First Fandom was to have an annual party or meeting where everybody could get together and have a lot of fun. 

Incidentally, member number one, outside of the founders, was none other than Robert Bloch. 

At the meeting where I was appointed president, Lou Tabakow gave me some interesting advice.  He said that he had been president of the Cincinnati Group for twenty-five years, and the way you do this is to never call an official meeting.  That way no one can vote you out.  So, for the next twenty-five years I was president of First Fandom. 

Klein:  I would like to provide a perspective on why we are here today discussing a “Crisis in First Fandom.”  At the first World Con meeting of First Fandom, Chicago in 1962, Don Ford was in the Cincinnati suite, and he stood up and said, “Okay, everybody who is not a member of First Fandom or a perspective member, leave the room now.  This is strictly closed for First Fandom.”  Bob Madle vouched for me, so I got to stay, and then someone started coming in the room and Don Ford said that it was a private party.  That person said, “I’ve never been told that I couldn’t come into a party at a convention in my whole life.”  Don said, “Okay buddy, you’re going out now,” and raised his foot as if to kick him.  Someone came over and said, “That’s Jack Williamson!”  Don said, “Okay.”  That’ll give you an idea of the mindset of Don Ford. 

Two or three years later at a Midwestcon, it was proposed that there were some people who had just missed the official deadline of being very old, but who were real First Fandom types.  I used to go to used book stores from the time I was nine, and buy the old Gernsback Amazing Stories, Wonder Stories and Science Wonder Stories.  I grew up reading all of the same material that these other people did a few years before me.  So it was proposed that there would be a certain limited number of people on a one-at-a-time basis that could be voted into First Fandom, as an exception to the general rule requirements.  There were some people, such as Dave Kyle, who thought that this was not a good idea.

Kyle:  I suggested that the six people who wanted to be members become associate members. 

Klein:  I remember it somewhat differently, in that there were only two proposed: Stan Skirvin and me.  Everyone was ready to vote it in when Dave said, “No, wait a minute.”  Everyone was so weary, and they wanted to get on with the party, so they said, “Yeah, do that.”  And that’s why there are a lot more young members now than there would have been if Dave Kyle had just sat down sooner.

Kyle:  I would like to revise that.  Originally there were only going to be six, including Jack Chalker, who would be the exception to the rule.  The reason they were being made associate members was that this was in the home of First Fandom at Midwestcon, and they had attended for many years and it was felt that they were part of the group.  The interesting outcome of all of this is that there was a young fellow there who lived in the area and he was very helpful.  His name was Ray Beam.  And Ray said to me, “Dave, I’d like to be a member of First Fandom, but I can’t qualify, I’m obviously too young.  What can we do?”  I said, “There were some others that wanted to be in First Fandom, too.  You can be one of the associate members.”  Ray was voted in as an associate member.  As the years moved on, Ray Beam, the kid who I advanced or suggested become an associate member, became the so-called president of First Fandom. 

Klein:  Now before we go on with revised history, would Forry Ackerman care to say a few well-chosen words?  If nothing else, describe the bottle of brandy.

Kyle:  I’d like to strike revised out of that remark.

Ackerman:  Somewhere in my 18-room home among three hundred thousand things there is that bottle.  I’m a teetotaler, so you don’t have to worry.  I’m not going to sample it. 

Klein:  The real problem currently is, originally, as I remember it, was that if the people who were to be voted in on the select basis of being real First Fandom types, there would be very few of them.  The objection was that if you had all of these young kids coming in there, who would today be sixty years old, they would take over the organization, as the older people became fewer.  The point was that the young people couldn’t take over because there won’t be enough of them, we won’t vote them in.  But, once the associate membership became available, somehow it became easier to make anybody within reason an associate member.  There was at least one “undesirable” as I remember, and he was proposed by a fellow associate member.  I didn’t realize that he was an associate member, because only the founders, the older members were supposed to choose and make the proposals, or I would have objected at the time.

Widner:  I’m going to tell you what it’s all about here.  What the associate members are for is to do all of the work, because us old geezers just don’t have it anymore, and we don’t get anything done.  If it wasn’t for Ray Beam and Mark Schulzinger, we wouldn’t have the membership roster and the newsletter, so I think associate members are fine, except they don’t get to vote.

Klein:  That’s not the way it works out.  While they may do this and that, they prevent us from giving the First Fandom awards at the world science fiction convention.  They decided among themselves that the awards should be given at any convention, including the World Con that gives us free rooms and free memberships and so forth.  Dave and I feel that the real place to give the awards is where First Fandom really has its heart, which is at the World Con. 

Kyle:  What Jay says I want to second.  A letter was circulated a couple years ago to various conventions, stating that First Fandom was looking for a permanent home to present the First Fandom award.  This letter was received, among other conventions, at Philcon, and a copy was shown to me.  I was asked, “What is this?  They’re peddling First Fandom out to the highest bidder who can offer the best accommodations as a place to hold the First Fandom award.”  I said that that just was not the way it was done.  It had always been held at the World Science Fiction Convention, and it would continue to be at the World Science Fiction Convention.  Also, another letter by Mark Schulzinger said that in order for the leadership to attend a convention, they would have to have their accommodations, at least, and some expense money, I assume.  First Fandom has always been where we paid our own way, never asked for reimbursement, and any money that was collected was used for the purpose of having a party. 

A First Fandom meeting was held in St. Louis a number of years ago.  Mark Schulzinger was put on the spot by Arthur C. Clarke, with whom I had arranged to have a telephone conversation from Sri Lanka.  Arthur said he had been looking at the membership list and he asked why Ray Bradbury’s name wasn’t on the list.  I handed the telephone to Mark Schulzinger, who said Ray Bradbury had been asked a number of times to pay dues, and he hadn’t paid his dues, so he has been dropped from First Fandom.  Arthur said that if Ray Bradbury didn’t have the money, he would pay his dues. 

Some of you may know of Lloyd A. Eshbach, pioneer publisher of Fantasy Press, who first published the books of “Doc” Smith.  A number of years ago, after what was going on, he resigned from the organization.  This is tantamount to those who served in World War One renouncing the fact that they served.  If you’re a veteran, you’re a veteran.  No one can take that away from you.

Madle:  As Dave mentioned, in the past all of the awards have been given at the World Con, in conjunction with the Hugo Awards.  I’m vice-president of First Fandom, by the way, a renegade by now.  They kicked Dave out.  How did you get back in, Dave?

Kyle:  I think that it was an underground swell, a protest movement, and, I paid the dues.

Madle:  I had arranged to have the awards given at the Hugo ceremony this year, and I called up Ray Beam and Mark Schulzinger.  They said, “What about all of the other things, such as free memberships for all of the members and their spouses, a special suite and access to the green room?”  I said, “You must be stupid to think that you can get those kinds of things from a World Con.  It just doesn’t happen.”  The next thing, a letter goes back to the World Con accusing them of making adverse comments.  So in the meanwhile, I called Schulzinger and asked him what was going on.  I had heard that he had arranged to have the awards given at Dragon*Con, when I had already arranged for them to be given at the World Con.  He says, “Yeah, but you didn’t get all of the goodies that have to go with it.  Besides, who are you do make these arrangements?”  I said, “I’m vice president, I outrank the secretary-treasurer.” 

These are things that are happening now, and Art made a good point.  Since Mark Schulzinger has been in, he has put out the quarterly magazine, to his credit right on schedule.  He has since resigned as the editor.

There is only one founding member of First Fandom left, and that’s me.  I’m the only one left of the group that founded it.   But, the organization now refers to anybody who is an active member as a founding member.  They also have two other categories – associate members and sustaining members.  A sustaining member is someone who is not even qualified to be an associate member but is permitted to buy a subscription to the magazine.  These are the things that are happening.

Klein:  In the magazine that was put out by Mark Schulzinger, it makes the bold statement that First Fandom is a service organization.  It is not a service organization.  He may make it out to be that way.  It is a social club.  We don’t have to have free memberships or free anything, we just come together because we are fans and we like to have our spot at the World Con like we always used to have until the recent takeover.

Madle:  Even considering everything, we are still going to have our spot at the World Con.  I’ve been given a couple of minutes to announce the award winners, even though they are going to be given at Dragon*Con. 

Kyle:  A couple of comments to clear up things.  In Art Saha’s absence, there was a meeting with eight or ten First Fandom people present, under the guidance of Beam and Schulzinger.  They said that Art Saha wasn’t doing any work, which was understandable because his father was very ill in Wisconsin with a terminal disease, and they wanted someone to do things.  Ray Beam demonstrated that when he was secretary he got things done.  Mark Schulzinger said that he was going to be a real help and that he had been assisting Ray Beam.  So it was decided that Ray Beam should be made president and Mark Schulzinger should be made secretary/treasurer. 

I challenged that.  I asked how that could be.  What were the governing rules on that?  Do we have a constitution?  It turns out we are an amorphous group, just grouped together as a society without any real rules, except who’s eligible.  After some time, a constitution was put forward.  I might have a copy of it in my papers.  It said that there will be two officers in First Fandom, and these officers will hold their offices for life.  Should one of these officers become incapacitated, the other officer will appoint somebody to take his place.  The constitution also said that there will be no meeting unless authorized by the president or the secretary-treasurer of the club.  This is an example of totalitarianism at it’s worst.  All I can say is that I feel that I’ve been put upon, that First Fandom has been denigrated and pushed into an intolerable situation, as far as I’m concerned. 

I have distributed today the basis of what I think the original First Fandom was, to make sure that my good friend Jay K. Klein doesn’t feel that he’s not part of the group.  Those that can prove their activity before the World Convention of 1939 are certainly active First Fandom members.  Those who were interested but just didn’t get around to getting a letter published in a magazine or something and are old enough are also members of First Fandom. 

Here’s a photograph from last year of the First Fandom bulletin board.  If you’ll go down to the exhibition area this year, you’ll find that it is posted again.  Who did it?  I did it.  There are still a few old-timers who can work.  Yet, there are those people who sit in their ivory tower, collecting money, and offering First Fandom memberships to anyone who wants to pay them money.  They don’t come to a World Science Fiction Convention and do something.  I don’t see how they can represent First Fandom. 

I have badges that I make that I pass around to people who are members of First Fandom.  I have a patch. I even have the official crown.  Now where are these other people who are supposed to be running First Fandom? 

Klein:  We know that if some people don’t come to a world con, they have no business being the officers and running things.  At least that was established by the people who are running it now. 

Kyle:  Where is the social gathering for First Fandom at this convention?  I will set up the time and get the First Fandom group together.  And, who’s going to pay for this?  Are we going to get money from funds from a treasurer who doesn’t report what he does with money that he collects?  Forry Ackerman just told me that when Ray Bradbury was not a member of First Fandom, he sent Bob Madle fifty dollars.

Madle:  I was discussing with Erle Korshak the idiocy of Ray Bradbury not being a member of First Fandom.  He said that he was going to have dinner with Ray in a couple of weeks and that he would bring it up.  So he did, and he told Ray to send his dues to Mark Schulzinger.  Ray said he wasn’t going to send it to Schulzinger, he was going to send it to Bob Madle, because I’m an old friend of Ray’s from way back.  So he did send me the dues.  He sent me fifty dollars, which is enough to pay for quite a few years.  So he is back as a member for right now.  I just thought even if Ray didn’t pay, he never should have been dropped under any circumstance. 

Klein:  I certainly haven’t seen any accounting of what’s in the treasury and what’s being done with it.  We’ve spoken enough for now, let’s hear from the audience members who might have something to say about this. 

Roger Sims:  The current criteria for membership in First Fandom is thirty years of continuous service to fandom.  Under that condition Mark Schulzinger doesn’t qualify, since he gaffiated for a number of years. 

Kyle:  I was told that it was illegal for me to publish the First Fandom newsletter.  I have been publishing it for years; I think that number twenty-eight was the last copy.  They said that it was illegal for me to use the First Fandom emblem, which is interesting because I am the one that drew it from the original illustration.  They said that if I used it, they’ve trademarked it and they are going to sue me.  When that happened, because I’ve been involved in other lawsuits, I just decided I was going to listen to what other people have to say.  Until now, for a year and a half I haven’t said anything.

Klein:  Apparently from the promulgated constitution, so-called, that came out of left field there, everything that the two people who don’t come to the conventions don’t approve of is illegal. 

A.C. Kyle:  I am a partisan, I am Dave Kyle’s son, and I am on the outside looking in.  I just want to say that First Fandom is a last man’s club.  With a thirty-year history in science fiction fandom, I can almost qualify.  I’ve been going to conventions for thirty-six years.  In fact, I was at the 1961 Worldcon, inside my mother.  So that’s ridiculous, to my mind.  It’s an organization where we, the younger people, can honor the people who have come before us in First Fandom.  When they are gone, we will honor their memory.  To consider it as a club that will go on in perpetuity is ridiculous.

Klein:  That’s the official Kyle position.  I take a somewhat different position, in that I think this old World War One tradition of the last bottle of brandy, as I think about the last two people left trying to drink their brandy from their wheelchairs, it’s too sad for words.  I don’t really think it’s a good idea. 

Widner:  I’ve been counting on that.  [Laughter]

Madle:  Really, Jay, that was set up pretty much as a joke.  Nobody ever seriously thought that there would be two fans left to drink it. 

Kyle:  It just so happens that I have here a copy of First Fandom Newsletter # 24, dated August 1982.  On the cover of this newsletter, it says in bold type what is on the label that’s on the bottle held by Forry Ackerman.  “This bottle, herein, is reserved for the last two members of First Fandom, to be opened at the final party, and to be finished by the sole survivor, circa 1939-?”  So that’s what’s on the bottle.  It doesn’t identify whether it’s whiskey or brandy or champagne.

Audience member:  I have a suggestion, taking an example from Ray’s Pizza in New York.  You could call yourselves the original First Fandom.  Nobody could sue you and you could use your logo and all that stuff.  It would be totally documented, and a lawyer would be crazy to go up against it.

Klein:  Some of us were thinking that, since some of the people running the group from some place out in the hinterlands don’t come to conventions, and they got to be there because they kicked someone out because he didn’t come, I don’t see why the members at this particular Convention can’t vote on it and have a new president. 

Widner:  There are a couple of things that are new to me.  I remember going to a lot of World Cons and talking with Ray Beam and Mark and others.  The other thing is, what is this thirty- year business?  That’s news to me.  I was gaffiated for thirty years, but I qualified under the original qualifications by being active before 1938.  Was this voted on?  Did it become official when I wasn’t looking?

Kyle:  There’s no voting, there’s no meeting, there’s no input into the so-called leadership of First Fandom. 

Madle:  Ray Beam, and to a lesser extent Mark Schulzinger, was one of the guiding lights of the Cincinnati Group, and we used to have our meetings in their suite.  Last year was the first year that First Fandom didn’t have the awards given at the world con.  It went to something called “The Convention with No Name.”  It was also the convention with no attendees.  So you had a very small convention.  This year they’re going to have it at a very large Convention, Dragon*Con, a so-called media convention.  I don’t know how many science fiction people are going to be there; I wouldn’t think too many. 

Ray Beam did come to conventions for many years, but now they both seem to have a sheer hatred of World Cons, because they are too big, and things like that. 

Widner:  And, as has been pointed out, World Cons have very little interest in us, and they have less and less interest in having us on the program, to give our awards, and so forth. 

Madle:  This is not true, Art.  Sure, we are limited, we’re a small organization.  When they say you have ten minutes to give your award, that’s not too bad.  You figure that Forry Ackerman has three minutes to give his Big Heart Award.  You just have to limit the time on these things.  Many times we’ve been given ten minutes and somebody got up there like Sam Moskowitz, who would give a thirty-minute speech.  And, many times we were given a room to have a party in.

Widner:  Good old Sam.  I have to relate this anecdote.  I went to a con where Sam was guest of honor, in Vancouver, and I had gotten sick on the way, so I came late.  As I arrived I asked if I was too late, was there something still going on, had they started the next panel?  And the gopher said, “No, that’s just Sam, he’s run over.  He’s giving the history of fandom, in real time.”

I want to go on record in case you’re getting the impression that I’m on the side of these upstarts.  I am not anti-Kyle, or anti-originals, or pro-johnny come latelys, or anything else.  I’d just like to see the thing go on with a minimum of politicking and backbiting.

Madle:  Here’s how it occurred.  I wasn’t at this meeting, but I understand that Forry and Art were there, and I got the real details from many people.  There was more than ten people there from First Fandom.  Remember that Soonercon?  There were about thirty-five people from First Fandom.  What happened was that I had resigned, and Art Saha had been vice-president, so he became president.  Of course, we played the same games.  I was technically appointed president, and Art was appointed vice-president, so when I resigned I appointed him president.  He hadn’t been active for several years, and at the meeting it was being discussed.  Julie Schwartz stood up and said, “What is it with Art Saha?  You never see him, he never does anything.  Why don’t we make Ray Beam president?”  A vote was held and Ray Beam was elected president.  I got on the phone with Ray and tried to talk him out of it, and about an hour later his wife called me up and chewed me out like mad.  So, now you have two associate members running the organization. 

Widner:  I really don’t think that associate members should have any offices.  It is fine to accept their help and Ray Beam helped us keep going for a long time when no one was doing much.  Who’s going to Dragon*Con and try to negotiate and kind of resolve this?  Let’s talk about how we can get together rather than having all of fandom being plunged into war.

Roger Sims:  As much as I hate to, I have to set the record straight.  Ray Beam became an officer of the organization through Lou Tabakow, who gave him the secretary-treasurer job when Lou could no longer do it. 

Klein:  The real problem is, how do you get the treasury out of the hands of someone who is holding it and doesn’t want to give it up?  I ran into a situation like that one time when I had to go into a lawsuit to get the person who was recalcitrant and holding the money to turn it over.  I am not saying that this is necessarily the case here, but from the so-called constitution that they wrote up, everything is illegal that they don’t approve of, and no one can hold a meeting unless they approve of it in advance.  It makes you kind of wonder about what’s going to happen. 

We don’t want to threaten anybody.  I’d say that we are a social club, and we’re just here to have a party and talk with our friends.  We don’t want to go through all of this hassle.  We just want to have our meetings at the World Con, and give the awards out as long as we can do it at the World Con where we would get some notice.

Kyle:  I’ve been thoroughly involved in this situation for years, and I have been soldiering on, doing the First Fandom Hall of Fame and on my own I’ve been arranging for parties for First Fandom.  If you will come to the table in the huckster room, I will give you more information on First Fandom.  Maybe there’s enough people here of legitimate qualifications for First Fandom to get together socially one of these evenings. 

The handout that I gave everybody says essentially what First Fandom is all about.  I am going to send this off to Schulzinger and Beam, saying that this is what I believe in.  And, a few, I don’t know how many, of the original old-time members of First Fandom agree, and see what their reaction is. 

Klein:  I’ve been asked to note that this session is being recorded.  Copies of the tape will be made available. 

Madle:  In that case, I take back everything that I said.  [Laughter]

Klein:  I wasn’t listening.  What did you say?  [Laughter]  We are out of time, so I guess we are adjourned, until we are a little older, next year.